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In this fourth episode of the Cybrary Podcast - COVID Chronicles series, host Brian Dykstra, the CEO of Atlantic Data Forensics, invited three guests to hear about their take on the current COVID-19 situation.
The first guest is Chuck Bubeck, the Executive Director of the Maryland Innovation Center. The second Guest is Kevin Crain, and he is the CISO of the University of Maryland Medical System. And the third guest is John Ward, the Director of Global Safety and Security for Marriott.
Brian started the episode by asking each guest to introduce themselves. Then he asked four questions to each guest one at a time and asked them to share their experiences around the industry and precisely how that is impacting their own company.
- How has COVID-19 affected your industry and, in your case, specifically?
- What was the most unexpected thing that happened that you weren't expecting? And then how did you guys handle it?
- What was the significant change that you guys made, that you wouldn't have made otherwise and that you're going to keep and will become part of your organization's future?
- What's the future look like for your industry and your company specifically?
Overall across the industries, there were initial hurdles, and organizations that were prepared and have already adopted the technology can transition smoothly. And Remote work will be the new norm going forward.
Kevin mentioned that he saw over a hundred thousand new COVID-19 related domain names had been registered, and a large percentage of them had already been identified as malicious. He also indicated that there are increased phishing attacks, and few of them even impacted the healthcare industry.
Chuck mentioned that companies, organizations that embraced technology were better prepared. He gave an example of the restaurants and those who had in place online ordering, or the ability to do delivery. Were okay and started taking remote orders and survived; however, this transition can not happen immediately, and a lot of restaurants are closed. He is also hoping for a lot of new innovation in the coming time.
John mentioned that the lodging industry is most impacted and will take a long time to return to normal once this pandemic is over. He also emphasized on the sanitization of the guest's rooms, and there is going to be more hospital-grade type cleaning to take place.
Brian: For everybody out there in cyber land. This is a Brian Dykastra and I see I always forget to tell the date today is six five 2020. And this is our fourth because Tom was keeping me up to date, in addition to the COVID Chronicles. I have with me an illustrious group of folks today, but we are going to talk about. In an innovation and having to move and switch up fast, during this whole pandemic and, and some of the other crises is going on there and what they all did. But first let me introduce my guests and we're going to start with Kevin Crain from the university of Maryland medical system.
Kevin: Hi, good morning at the time of the recording. Anyway, afternoon, I understand it. I'm Kevin Crain for the University of Maryland medical system. We're a 14 hospital health network across the state of Maryland, including the state shock trauma center in Baltimore. Been with, with UMS for the past four and a half years prior to that. Seven years with Johnson & Johnson pharmaceutical R&D, seven years with General Electric company and then the army and Tennessee army national guard prior to that. So privileged to be here. And I appreciate it.
Brian:I understand. And Kevin, you're now the longest serving CISO at UMS, is that correct?
Kevin: Yeah, I appear to be setting a new record.
Brian: So every day, the milestone for him, right. And next we have with us, John Ward from Marriott, he is the director of global safety and security.
John: Okay, thank you, Brian. So, for our organization, crisis falls under a global safety security. So, I've been awfully busy lately, with Marriott for 17 years, before that, Northeastern university in Boston, which is my hometown, apologize to the accent, it will come out and I'm criminal, criminal justice major and, Marriott the whole, whole career. That's about, that's about right from college, right. To Marriott.
Brian: True I was looking him up on LinkedIn today. It’s like two lines. I was in college and I've been at Marriott that tells you something about the company. Right? All right. And last but not least, I have Chuck Bubeck with us, who is the executive director of the brand new. Not Brand new, but pretty new Maryland innovation center.
Chuck: Nice to meet you guys. That's the great thing, I guess, about the Brian's a format here is we don't know each other, which makes it interesting. as Brian said, I'm the recently, Brought on an executive director for the new Maryland innovation center in Howard County. It's basically the sort of combining of what was the Maryland center for entrepreneurship, the Howard tech council, and it's run by Howard County economic development. so we've been building basically a 65,000 square foot facility focused with an accelerator. A startup facility and basically business services all under one roof. I've been there since November. Previous to that, I had run in sort of several other companies and sold them and ran them along the way. Most recently, a large managed service provider, that I sold in, November. Good timing. before things kinda took a turn there up previous to that I spent, actually 10 years at Apple. Back in the good old Apple days, which was right before the Mac came out, and I spent 10 years there. And before that, I had also started up one of the first computer retailers here in the area. So I'm a fan of Brian. So when he tells me to come somewhere, I just follow him.
Brian: That's not exactly true, but. Chuck his credit is the first ever kind of lead of the innovation center or, or, or whether they've been calling it the accelerator over there. That's actually been a no kidding CEO of multiple companies and he successfully sold them off. So it's like a bright and shiny new day over there at the innovation center. With, because you know, that Patrick wind guy that was leading to before was truly terrible. Right. Alright. First question. this one's it, easy softball sort of one, we'll pop back around to you. Kevin said trauma right here. but how has COVID-19 affected your industry and in your case specifically,
Kevin: Yeah. From an industry perspective in healthcare, the phishing attacks right out of the gate, we received credible threat intelligence early in, in the pandemic, indicating over a hundred thousand new COVID-19 related domain names had been registered. and, and a large percentage of them had already been identified as, as malicious or malignant, as we like to say in healthcare.
Brian: So I've been working with the CTI league folks and they've identified probably hundreds of thousands at this point, they're working with law enforcement to get it taken down. but it, it, it seems to be a continuous, I mean, as many as they can pop up in a day, you know, at a bunch of other agencies working on it too, it gets, it just pushes right back out just as fast.
Kevin: Yep. Yeah. And the phishing attacks, we measure those and report those as part of our KRI and a key risk indicators. we average about 1400 detected and blocked phishing attacks per day. Plus the occasional one or two that, that squeaked through undetected. In mid-March that jumped over 2200 in a single day for two days in a row, with no discernible pattern in terms of the source. So whether it was a bot net or, or just very well planned attacks, the volume spike was, was significant. The thing that we noticed about opportunists was again, as the secret service categorizes cyber act actors as either wolves or coyotes, wolves being government grayed, or corporate organized well-funded attackers coyotes being the, you know, the individual attackers who will tend to spray large volumes of, of attack traffic, looking to just land one, hit. What we saw was, was an awful lot of government, great attacks, not, not so much as us, but across the industry we saw, for example, for no Czech Republic, a ransomware attack that knocked out that hospital for a, for a long period of time. Disabling their, their online systems and their entire network. we saw the Ukraine and South Korea hit with what appear to be government grade, cyber attacks. And then within the US we got bulletins indicating the world health organization was being impersonated, to spread. And this misinformation,
Brian: And is those who emails and the, and the ones for the, you know, the fake CDC emails, those, those really catch people because people are legit scared out there. Right? So they see, you know, brand new treatment options or new testing centers available in your area. You know why wouldn't they click them
Kevin: From our end, the, the single largest pattern that we saw in terms of parades statistics was PPE scams, masks, gloves, hand, sanitizers, and other respirator type equipment, a lot of scam traffic, in some cases, the coyote pattern of, of sprays in, you know, hundreds, if not over a thousand. but in a lot of cases, Wolf patterns where they had researched enough to land their emails, right on our supply chain leadership, who then promptly escalated it for research. And, and we did, find and report to them that it was a scam. The intents are typically the same as financial fraud. You know, they, they taught in the army. All, all warfare is economic and cyber warfare is, is. Follows that same pattern, so financial frauds, misinformation, disruption of services, and then FAFSA of information, I'll end with the, the fake Johns Hopkins COVID-19 map that, that hit earlier this year. the domain name, very realistic looking. It was Corona dash virus dash-map.com. it was found to contain Trojan horse malware information theft. And we detected inbound emails with that link in it and, and had to go into incident response mode to scrub those. That was a very well targeted attack. And one that's been seen widely across the US and I'm sure elsewhere across the industry from an ops perspective, the big. Yeah, early learning experience for us was field care environments. And how those change during a pandemic field care in healthcare typically is mass vaccinations. things like, like mass medication dispensing. Those can be done on paper medical charts, very easily. It's a single encounter and it's very short latency or very short duration. So a patient can drive up, stick their arm out the window, sign the consent form backs, donate them and off they go. Field testing is another matter entirely where you draw a blood specimen or a nasal swab. and then have to label it, package it, send it back to the central lab for a test that could take two or more days. Doing that on paper was identified early on as being problematic. So for the first time we had to project our fully electronic medical records system into a field environment, or several of them. so the logistics associated with securing that network traffic over a VPN tunnel and providing enough bandwidth and a low enough latency that the experience for the users in a field tent, would be found acceptable to them compared to what they're used to in the hospital, where it's all gig ethernet, a real challenge, but one that having done it now we've got muscle memory for, for next time.
Brian: Right, but you don't, don't go too far into that yet. Because I definitely want to talk to you about what you guys did down at the convention center and stuff like that. So that'll be an inner space, John skipping to you. Not exactly the best of times for the hospitality industry.
John: Yeah. So hospitality industry particularly hit hard by the pandemic, restaurants, as we know, sports events, any other kind of big venues, which attract a lot of people, any stadium size events. But also for us, you know, the, the virtual just shutting down of our lodging operations throughout the globe, really? For me, it began back the second week of January, when we got the call that we had a problem over in the Wuhan Providence in China, where China's a huge market for us.
John: And so, the picture became again, has become painted for all of us on the global security side of it. What the future impact is if it could not be contained within the area. Now we saw a few of these pandemics in the past, the H1N1 SARS. And those few that really were contained a bit more. So I think in everyone's mind, we're thinking, you know, contain it here and it won't begin to spread, but this one was a little bit different and, and we all know what happened. and so as an organization, we, we jumped to a, what we call a tier three. Company response. And so we have four stages of crisis tier zero being an actual stage. So for us, this was jumping almost all the way to the top, which I think really benefit us in the long run because we began these calls with, just the, our, our continent leader for Asia Pacific, but we had all of our other continent leaders on there. And so we were talking about efforts to contain, save business, get PPE to the hotels. You name it work with first responders, provide rooms for them, help the community. And so all of the other continent leads are on the calls along with our global security group and we're, and we're listening to the efforts there and lo and behold it spread. We were able to stay ahead and all the other continents, as it, as it impacted us, our whole crisis operation, as it was written in our preparedness book. Went really well, really well, but, I had to be tweaked quite a bit, as the situation evolved. And so we found that we can't continue to run the goal with all of our resources tied up on that once your team, we had to all and the term we're using this skill, and then bring that back down to really the cheer one team and back to the continent level and address it as a continent because we just didn't have the manpower to continue on, on a global scale. We needed our folks that had that experience from the tier three team to come over and run a tier one team and handle it that way, kind of a Kevin issue had mentioned a big uptick on the cyber side. And so I'm on our physical security and crisis group, not on the cyber side, but we were working hand in hand as we found that, some of the, some of the websites, absolutely fraudulent, they're looking for credit card upfront. You're never going to get your product, but what was mixed in there also our popup vendors that really did have a product. And the product was costly except the product is of such poor quality that it really did the organization. No. Good. And so as such a large organization, with franchisees and managers and communication, always being difficult. We have a lot of franchisees to get out to. We have a lot of owners to get out to. It became an ongoing battle to keep our owners and our franchisees. And even some of our managed hotels in line with not going over to the fraudulent websites, entering any information or procuring their own supplies from us and paying top dollar for a product that you're going to get. And it's going to fall apart or slide off your face and be of no use. And so we scrambled. But a lot of communication out, but still had a bit of scrambling to do, to stop all of that. But we were successful. I don't, I don't think that we would hit a single time, but every man on board effort. Conti continues to this day in our hotels, basically are all sort of still closed down a bit of reopening in the Southern States, very low occupancy in those States. We were doing many crisis calls for all of our confirmed guests and associates. As there are some similarities and how to manage those incidents. There's a lot of local nuances, such as board of health differences, local jurisdiction laws. And so we're running crisis calls for all of those, which are managed by me and my team. And so our day now consists of a crisis calls for a confirmed associate and our hotels confirm guests at our hotels and now a whole lot of prices and preparation calls for the riots impacting all of our major cities. We've hundreds of hotels impacted by the riots, and we're really focused more on the preparation side. Obviously we don't want it to have it. We don't want to be caught by surprise. And so preparation side may mean anything from enhanced staffing and keeping the front door locked for key card entry at any time, all the way up to complete closure of the hotel, boarding it up and putting in farm security in there to report out on the asset. And unfortunately, we've had to do that now for a number of our assets, a handful so far, we're working closely with our intelligence group. We're working closely with their law enforcement contacts to try to predict any sort of large scale agitators that may come into a particular city and escalate the violence and the damage. And as quickly as they're pumping us Intel, We're reaching out to the properties. And we're saying to jump to and you know, jump to preparation level four and hop on a call with them to talk them through how to do that. resources are depleted. It's hard to find third party security. It's hard to find plywood companies to come out in Fordham. It's hard to get associates to work because rightfully so, they're a little bit nervous to come in. And so, every day is just about staying ahead. And planning to the best of our ability. And luckily so far, we've managed to stay here.
Brian: Wow. As bad as I expected, it would be, it says a lot of stuff. And then the writing on top of that. So that's, that's although you, I mean, you guys have a fair amount of experience with having unusual events happen on or near your hotel properties. So you. In, in, in normal times, it would be much, much quicker response to that sort of thing. It probably related to something.
Chuck: John, John just said about the affording of, of, of some of the facilities I, I give you the other, the other twist to that is, there was a large protest planned here in Columbia by the Columbia mall. And it turned out to be, really a very peaceful, thing except AMC theaters who's located in the mall, took the opportunity to board up their theater when nobody else had bordered anything up and the amount of negative, you know, press they've gotten over that by this 10, I'm guessing 10,000 people who've met, over by, But ended up down by the Lake from the mall. It was so it's just so funny how you can prepare for the worst and it turns out your move, which by the way, I'm sure AMC made that decision at a corporate level. Right. Looking at major cities. And didn't look at this, this minor in the scheme of things, protest, rally, I'll call it not a riot, so.
John: You know, I agreed on that. everyone, has in their back of their mind beside that they, their choose a political side, how they feel about the event. And it's, it's, it's really, really, really divided. And, and a challenge that we have with our facilities are we're housing, national guard, we're housing policing that may come in from the suburbs or maybe from other States. And so we, we could be looked at. As maybe taking one side or another, as opposed to just running our business and revenue. And we really don't have, you know a side that we've chosen at all. We're just providing fighting roads. And so that's in the back of our minds of how do we, how do we make that happen while still remaining neutral?
Chuck: Yep. Yep.
Brian: Yeah, well, and, I mean, even in a big group of 10,000, mostly peaceful marchers, I mean, all it takes is, you know, two kids throwing rocks and it all turns, you know, in a heartbeat anyway. on that happy note, Chuck, yeah. You try to run an incubator and accelerator and your outreach programs and everything. And then, you know, boom, February comes around and.
Chuck: Yup. Well, actually, and I've got, you know, I have that, but also since, this center is actually funded and run by the Howard County economic economic development authority, I've also been pulled into that side of it, which was working with all this PPE money. I'm sorry, PPP money that went through and seeing sort of the landscape here in the County, which is most of, you know, is a fairly wealthy County, but it has pockets of all kinds of businesses. And to see how this, you know, this event has kind of. It felt by every single company, by our top cyber companies, to obviously the, the restaurants, and any kind of place we've got, you know, we're the home of the Merriweather post pavilion, which is, I think it's gonna be awhile before 10,000 people want to be literally shoulder to shoulder for each other. So I've seen that side of it, which has also been tough to watch on the incubator side. Interestingly enough, I had a call. About a week or two ago with, I'm on the board of the, of MBIA. And it was about represented probably 20 to 25 incubators and startup facilities. And interestingly enough, almost nobody had any losses of their startups and all within that, within the facilities. And in other words, most of them were. The same as they always were, if not in some cases, many had pivoted to sort of, obviously producing PPE stuff, but I found that kind of surprising. In other words, it didn't re represent the small business side of big impact. And then when I thought about it more, if you think about a startup they're ready for anything. In other words, every day, you wake up. If you're one of these startups you're expecting. The world to crash in on you. So this actual crashing on you, they're ready for it. They have lower costs. And to, and it's just funny how, if you're ready to adapt and as a startup you're built into adapt, I mean, good news is looked at as there's something behind it. And that's sort of the, you know, the nature as you try to plow forward. So I was actually surprised at the resiliency actually of startups and, actually startup funding. Didn't completely evaporate. A lot of the major companies who were funding. These have stayed solid on it. I, there has been them like pull back. We're not a big Mecca here, obviously venture money. we have a lot of, smaller, I always say angel, but sort of private money here. And none of that really actually dried up, which was sort of interesting, a lot of deals that were probably. Beginning got slow, but deals that were close to the end actually were funded. So if you looked at the startup community, as you know, and then looked at the crisis, it was a, it was much different than, than I thought it would be of our 30 startups we have in the building, our building. Obviously we, we, we closed obviously, not to them. We closed meaning that no visitors, so they can't conduct normal business, use our conference rooms, theaters and stuff like that, but they can come and go as they want. And most of them managed to. Move into the virtual barn, which I know you've got a conversation. So I won't get into that Brian, the challenges of that. But, in my call with the rest of the regional we'll call, Maryland, startup facilities, most of them, were impacted financially, obviously because they are dependent upon the rent of those startups, usually, or other money, they can get a hold of grant money. And all of that got frozen in time. We were lucky enough that the, Maryl innovation center, because we're funded by the County. I didn't face that same challenge, which was good for us. So we did not charge rent as did none of my peers, to start facilities starting really, basically for April may. And now we're just starting to charge again. And, even the, I know that Maryland university of Melbourne associated ones who kind of followed that same pattern. And so that's, but the health of that industry shocked me to be honest. So that's my, my message here, the startup community, Remained sort of still focused in on what they did. And as I said, there's a couple of our companies that actually made a quick pivot and moved over to create some, No PPE products. And if they're right kind of in this space and they could do that, and that's the beauty, probably a being a startup is you could be mobile, you can move fast. And I, you know, I, I look at John and Kevin and the mega mega mountains. You have to move to get things done. And I respect what you guys would you guys to do, do to do that. And then you look at the other end of these startups where they can get on a phone call and say, we're taking a ride in the next five feet and they take a right turn and can pull it off. So,
John: Chuck, you know, it's a great thing. And it's very interesting that, you know, being smaller and starting off that you have that ability to be more nimble. And then also pivot, I was in a conversation with a Sonder hotels and if you're not familiar there, they sell all their products on Airbnb, but their business model is a bit different and they, they actually go out and get leases and they worked for the lease with have the ability to rent out their asset as a hotel. On a nightly basis. And so we were going around and just talking about how low occupancy is and how much of an impact this has had. And Sonder spoke up and said, we're at 65% in restretch, you know, how in the world, because the startup would be at 65% and the answer was, they have taken all of their hotel, short term business because they have this lease. And they just rent it out for a year. All of their, all of their availability in the markets and people jumped on it signed a year lease and 65% and growing. And so they pivoted that startup and are successful or doing very well. And they're going to weather this storm, which has decimated the rest of the hospitality industry. Very well.
Chuck: Interesting pivot pivoting is the story of the, of the time. And I don't know what it's time to get in that brand, but clearly. Yup. Companies, organizations that can pivot it's something like this are finding themselves in some ways, potentially better off than they were before this, before this crisis. And that's something that we're sort of pushing and preaching, sort of Brian is aware of this world 2.0 thing we're doing, which is focusing on how do you take advantage of a, of a, of a disaster like this and use it as a change point. And again, I look at John and Kevin and think I, I used to be in your shoes and look at, want to do change management in, in these things. Behind me, you know, if this big semi truck or big Freightliner and you know, it's tough. And so, but this is the time to do it. And, and we're, we're heavily promoting that with our, our startups. And we're looking at, it's funny, some programs to get, businesses into sort of fast tracking some change, man. It's a great time to look at your customer. Look at, you know, look at the things you do.
Brian: So that's question number three. We'll get started.
Chuck: Sorry I know
Brian: Alright, so, so problem back over to Kevin, question number two, which is my second favorite question, I think actually is, what, what was the, you know, the, the new headlights car that came out of the dark and hit you? And this, this whole, pandemic experience, you know, what, what was that thing you just weren't expecting? And then how did you guys solve re-engineer around it? You know, make changes to accommodate it, you know, in deal.
Kevin: Yeah. So the best example that, that I'll lay out was the, the unexpected, length of this whole remote work situation that we find ourselves in. So the initial heavy lift of, of moving all the administrative people that we could, you know, from, you know, billing and revenue cycle, it human resources. That heavy lift. We saw that, you know, that coming and, and, you know, with our CIO and CTO, we were able to pivot on that quickly. but we didn't know it was going to be this long. So patching all these thousands of devices that are now sitting in people's houses, not touching our corporate, networks, required some risk based decision making. the amount of bandwidth that might be available over a VPN tunnel into a house was a variable. normally our end point patching happened off hours and then we'd pick up the stragglers during business hours. Well, you know, it came back to a risk decision. Do we accept the risk of not patching? You know, no, you know, these patches were, were critical. They were high CVSs scores. Yeah, so we, we began trialing and then we found that, that the hit wasn't as bad as, as it was predicted. So we actually shifted our pants schedule into business hours while people were using the assets, with negligible effect on their productivity. in my case, I didn't even know my machine had been patched. I had to, I had to go into the control panel of my, of my windows laptop. And verify that it had been patched. so it was a, it was a pivot that we didn't expect to have to make. You know, the guesses were two weeks, maybe four, and then we'll all be back to work. Here we are two months plus later, and now having to sustain these assets in a secure manner without being able to touch them.
Brian: Right. Well, and then that, that return date varies regionally. we had, we had CISO of Levi Strauss, excuse me, deputy CISO, Levi Strauss on a couple of weeks ago. And he was saying that, you know, the San Fran area where they're based. but the decision had already been made that, you know, they wouldn't even consider returning to work until sometime end of July. You know that was they'd made that decision back in April. You know, whereas John was saying he got some of the Southern States are already opening up. So you know, certain areas and then regionally, I mean, there are regions in the country where there's, there's almost no. No COVID cases. Right. You know, you know, Southeastern Texas there's hardly, of course there's hardly anything in Southeastern South Dakota and a lot of the farm belt country also not experiencing, you know, a lot of, a lot of COVID-19. So, I mean, you know, available, open up and places like that. So it makes it a little bit different. John. What about you? what, what was the one big thing that you just didn't see coming?
John: Well, certainly number one is duration. I think everyone expects the pandemic to come in, hit for a couple months and then move along and not just continue to circle and squirrel and present the issues that it's doing. really just draining the funding from, from our operation, from our owners, from us as a corporation, you name it across the board, but I think, Kevin had a great point too, about the not expecting to work from home. We're not a very heavy work from home. organization on the above property level as we call it our corporate level. And so we had just rolled out a new product called Microsoft teams, and it was still kind of in a, in a trial phase. And so, you know, as you can imagine, a large organization, our networks, and very, very, very locked down by our it group. And so we did, we have zoom application. We really have much just this teams. Application and you could sign up for getting the, have to have it at the time. Optional and people were really just starting to learning when all of it hit and we shut down our corporate office and we really didn't know how the impact would go. And so not so much from a security side, but more from an understanding and user-friendly type side, we pumped off all sorts of. materials to help folks learn it. And then we had a monthly that was made was by a monthly check in call to see how the efficiency of the above property organization was running. Everyone was scared because it was all a meeting room, go in and talk it out type meetings before it had all switched to virtual. And it was using because within just a short period, couple of months of it, we were right at, almost a hundred percent efficiency. And, and right now I believe there's no rush to have to get that building open, which is great because Maryland is still, know still a state that's maybe just starting it's it's downswing now and the number of cases, but it's still, you know, a hazard. But there's no rush to have to get that done and bring everyone, anyone back to a hazardous, potentially hazardous environment because the application is worth them all. For us.
Kevin: It's a fair point. The, you know, the, the risk of bringing people back in, with the kind of efficiency that you get with remote work, Really doesn't offset that small amount of benefit, bringing people back in. So the argument to, to return to work, I think diminishes over time for those companies that are like yours, that were able to make that pivot.
John: Yeah. I'm pretty confident that there may be some things looked at with the future operating model because it does seem to be, does seem to be working well. So I'm sure it's being looked at either a HR, IT lens or even a higher lens than that.
Brian: We have large clients that have actually, dumped major portions of their real estate holdings, during, during the, the pandemic here, because two, three months in, they just decided, you know what, we, we really don't need that office. We're, we're operating just fine without it. And that's a $2 million a year drain on the budget that we could do a lot, lot better with. So, we had, who was it? David shim, really from, from, Mackenzie, Mackenzie, Mackenzie, real estate on, just a few weeks ago. And he was saying that, That they, they expect to see a lot of that. And they're, they're a little bit unsure as to what the future is. As a, as a commercial real estate organization is going to look like when you own lots of buildings and a majority of your tenants are figuring out, maybe we don't really need lots of buildings anymore. You know, maybe we need one location for a headquarters and everything else can be remote.
Chuck: Maybe that's the two worst jobs right now, the country concert, promoter and commercial real estate salesman. Because.
Brian: Yeah. They was saying something like 60 averaging 60 meetings a month with the potential buyers. And he was down to like two a month or something like that. It was as rough, rough out there for Dave. But, Chuck, what about you? What, so what was the, what was the thing that you just didn't didn't see coming.
Chuck: I probably everything. I mean, I it'd be hard to break that down. And I think that what, what was sort of interesting is how different this was then 2008, the.com bust. You mean to, and how far you want to go back because of the depth of this. And, you know, as you look and, and, you know, John, you were talking about. You know, Marriott and, and, you know, the issues Mary had. And then if you take a Marriott and spin out all the people who make a living off of Marriott, and then those people who make a living off of them, and you know what I'm saying until the reach of this, this global reach was just, I think, incredible. And even companies who probably were built to do very well because they had, you know, they weren't, there was no, they're not in the hospitality business, not anything they still have. Customers who have to pay them, you know, who are potentially in that business. So the reach of this I think was pretty incredible. And the second thing relates to the, so this virtual thing and Brian, you and I have had this conversation because I've seen a lot of it and there are some, major companies who do are doing very well in, in the area that I, that I'm aware of. We're really looking at their landscape of their in house workers. And, to map what John said, people are finding that they fought it for so long. In fact, if you remember, if you look at HR manuals, it was sort of, that was the exception, not the rule. If you want to work from home and you gotta be careful with policies, I think that's going to get flipped because I think companies that got forced. In descending work as home just realized productivity. It really didn't go down. And in fact, maybe that's another conversation someday about how companies have adapted to work smarter being at home. But I, I see, and I, I think most people see now is that's not, there's no rush back to work, for obvious health reasons. And I, and I think people are finding that the companies that are making these decisions, it's pretty productive. If you look at a small business, you know, the lease that they have is probably their second or third highest expense right behind their employee costs in healthcare. And then if they can drop their third largest expense, why would they not? Unless there are certainly in a business that would require that, and even, you know, cyber companies, who work with some top secret, some other things they've done exceptions. And I know a couple companies I've talked to have managed to go ahead and, and be able to work remotely. So, you know, the other comment on that is if you look at the federal space, so the federal contractor space, which is what our world around here revolves around. If you think about it, a lot of those companies have had onsite people that's if they're, if they have any kind of staffing stuff they've been onsite working, they've been remote workers. It just happened to not the, they want to side with the customer. Right? So the challenges of how do you work with the staff now, you can't stand the water cooler with a there's lessons to be learned from some contractors. I've learned how to create a connection to the company that they hire, even though they spend all day, you know, may be Marriott, if they're a contractor, you know, working in the it department. So, so I think the depth of, I mean, just the depth and how these things seeped out much further than, than, I think, I, I, you know, you don't realize the global impact like this until you really look at it.
John: You know, Chuck, I think, yeah. I think you touched on a great point there too. That that brings a whole other component of this. It's the satisfaction and the engagement. Of the employees. I think that all of a sudden being able to work from home has, has really made a lot of folks happy, particularly in, in inner cities where the traffic has just gotten worse and worse and worse. You know, you think of this Maryland area where it's very common to spend an hour, hour and a half per day commuting in your, your you're polluting. Now your vehicle is parked at home. You're using the extra hour. It's either do a personal activity exercise that you didn't have time to do before another hour with the kids, or maybe you're really busy and you're using that hour to be more productive, completing work, and overall you're happier. And I think the employers need to consider that to bring someone back. They may not want to come back. They may want to say, you know, I really liked this work whole thing. It really worked for me. I'm able to now pick up the kids from school. It's just made a difference in my life. And I'm going to search for a company that will let me work from home.
Chuck: Yup. Any company starting up right now is not buying leased space. So, so if we look at sort of like, if you were gonna look at the next company, because they'll be hiring. You're you're two guys smart people away from you, right? I mean, meaning that, and those companies of the future probably will have that you're exactly right. And be able to respond better to sort of also the, I don't like to get into the millennial conversations, but that was always a challenge, a little bit making that turn in. And what's funny is. This environment is exactly what they want the freedom to do the things John, you just talked about to go mountain bike riding at four 30 and be able to do it and not have to spend time in traffic to do this. So this can be spun to be something positive for companies. If they, if they probably got it, if they take a look at identifying the areas that are probably not going to work as well. And some of those I talked to companies about our culture is one of them. You know, your company culture was always built around touching and feeling and doing stuff, having people around you, how do you do that? When you know, you have your workforce spread out, but again, another topic for another time.
Brian: Sure. Alright. So question number three. What's the, the big, the big advantage take away thing. The big change that you guys made, that, you know, you wouldn't have made otherwise that you know, that you're going to keep and, and you know how big it's going to become party of the future of your organization and the COVID-19 era. When did you find that was new and special and great Kevin?
Kevin: Well it's, I think it's, it's partially us and partially our patients, but telemedicine use has skyrocketed, both with our patients in their homes or, or outpatient practices as well as inpatients, being able to have medical specialist consults. Over telemedicine, terminals, rather than waiting for the person to get the page and then come down to the emergency department and then read the chart and go bedside. These happen in, in real time and the, and the positive impact on patient care has been striking.
Brian: you know, my endocrinologist online meeting with her uploaded my, my insulin pump data to her. We did the review together online. She refilled prescriptions. Boom. Yup. It was, it was, it was beautiful. Honestly, I don't want to go back and see her in her office anymore. The big waste of time.
Kevin: And we hear that a lot that a lot of people who had, had really been recalcitrant to news telemedicine, you know, preferring to instead go to the office and be able to have that interaction. That really wasn't an option, in the early stages of pandemic and in a lot of places to, to John and trucks, it's still not because of the, of the acuity of the COVID cases. I think that that's going to persist well beyond the pandemic and I have a similar success story, Brian, where we're, we did a tele health console and. That we're all asking ourselves. Why would we ever drive all the way down there again, if we don't have to this, this is a much better way to do things. So I think our, our investments in telemedicine and they were considerable at the early phase of this, we operated a, a very high quality telehealth program. but we've been bulking up capacity, you know, considerably, ever since the end of the onset of this. I think that investment is already paid off and I think it will continue to both, again, from the patient's perspective, as well as our providers, because of the comfort level that, that both sides of the care equation have gotten during the pandemic. So if there is a good side to this, I think the, the increased use of telehealth will be, will be among those.
Brian: You know, I was I was really impressed by it. and, and it saved me probably an hour and a half out of my day, you know? Because because every everything was, you know, everybody's kind of done. We had a whole 25 minutes, maybe total consultation, but I'm, I'm not sitting around in a waiting room. I'm not dealing with, you know, all that other stuff that you tend to deal with. If that makes going to a health care facilities for routine matters, such a pain
Chuck: But now you can’t keep up with people magazine, Brian, that's the problem.
Brian: You know, I'll make do, you know, I'll get my own subscripts. Does anybody subscribe to magazines anymore? I don't even know.
Chuck: Yeah, I think it's a medical waiting rooms in barber shops,
Brian: Barber shops. There's the one that's suffering. I gotta, I gotta Barber come in here in a couple of weeks. I'll be on the show. It's going to be interesting. So, anyway, I'm in a barbershop at gun store and a liquor store all at the same time, at least two of those are doing very well that's for about the barbershop, but, alright. John, what about you? What's the, what's the big takeaway thing that, you know, you guys did as a change during this is probably gonna stick with the company going forward
John: Before I jump into it, I'll just add that I was a hair cut every two week guy. Now I haven't got one in four months, so I know my barbershops failing it. So yeah. I think they are something that's hit hard. I, you know, I think in my opinion, we we're doing more with less. And so that has caused our, our scope of responsibility to expand. And it's caused us to work, outside of what was traditionally our discipline. So we've had to grow as manpower has been depleted, we're running with the, significantly smaller corporate structure. And so I've learned a lot of things on other sides of other disciplines as a kind of, to, to make things happen that I would have never known or so for me, it's, it's been personal growth and I think others in my group feel the same way. So an example of that is we're having so many of these crisis calls, supporting hotels for confirmed guests, confirmed associates riots that, resources are depleted. And so maybe. Maybe our, our, our director of engineering, can't make the call to talk about, the right way to board up the windows without, it breaking glass or doing permit damage. Maybe an HR person can't get on there too. Because they're doing another one to talk about therapies, but yet I've heard them talk about it and I've understood and I've learned kind of what their wants and ask are. And so I'm able to represent those other, those other disciplines. Why not perfectly as well as they will, but sufficiently enough to make the goal of the call. come to fruition. So I think learning more with less, definitely a positive for us.
Brian: So everybody becomes a crisis manager.
John: Yeah, absolutely.
Brian: But I mean, it's not a bad thing, right. If everybody else has also taken on those, those same responsibilities, how much more prepared are we as organizations, you know, in the future, right. Where, you know, it's not somebody, it's not one person's job. It's everybody's job and they've all had to do it before. Chuck what about over there at the make? What do they.
Chuck: Well, we, one of the things is the, you know, companies, organizations, I think that embraced technology were better prepared, you know? And you've, you've got tens of thousands of examples. If you were, if you were a restaurant. And you already had in place online ordering, or the ability to do delivery. You ready to go? We saw a lot of restaurants locally fail because that's not something you turn a light switch on you a lot and could even accept electronic payments with credit cards. They're just, they weren't set up to do that. Because they were stuck 10 years ago. And, and, and to be Frank, some of them failed, and the other problems that was compounded, obviously I won't get into that where you had the delivery services, who were making a killing, because they could, they could, they could stand them up for them to handle it, but it cost them 30% and with the restaurants had no margin. Anyway, the other example is companies that, began to embrace the cloud. Brian, you know, that mean the managed service provider. I, I, I had what I just, which I just sold last year, that was our focus was, was doing small beam business for cloud services. And we had moved a ton of law firms, accounting firms into the cloud. And, you know, how many emails and calls I got from them saying, thank God. Because to them, work from home was done. They're already logging into the cloud wherever they were, all this stuff was already being shared and they didn't, they didn't have a blip. And for the other organizations who had held off that. It's not a great time to go out and get anything right during the crisis. It's, you know, everything's in shortage. And if you want to do all of a sudden move yourself to the cloud or get your employees up to speed on technology, much less have technology. I think Kevin, you brought up, I mean, when you're delivering technology to people's homes, I mean, there's no, there's no standards at all between even internet access or what kind of systems they have. So. I think the companies, if there's a less, you know, a little less than out of this to be prepared is, you know, I'm not saying technology, innovation saves everything, but you certainly, if you think that way, then these kinds of events, you could kind of move, move quicker through. And, and in this case, we're going to have an example of a graveyard of, of smaller companies who had not embraced technology in some form. And they were never able to make the leap. Now they trying to build an eCommerce site for your business. Overnight. It doesn't work.
Brian: Right. That's a long term prospect. yeah, I've, I've wondered, you know, and I'm sure you have a better sense for, but I've wondered here in the Howard County area, just, just how many restaurants just don't ever reopen.
Chuck: I think the number is going to be in the 30 to 40% range to be Frank. nationally. I think now the restaurant business has been finding about new restaurant businesses, shaky business. Anyway, I think the annual turnover in restaurants is probably 25% or so, but so you could expect it to be the same, but worse. And, I do think, I bet you, you could see 40%, even at a place like the County here, which is, you know, has some affluence and. Yeah, sort of, but some of these big can't get seats there and it's there, but not to get in the restaurant business, but you know, they make a lot of margin off of liquor, right? And you can't, you're not give your bar's not open and you can't sell liquor carry on unless they buy something, which is why you have these places saying, you know, buy a cherry pie slice from us. And then you could have 6,000 bottles of bourbon and that's kind of what's happened.
Brian: Yeah, that'll be interesting in two weeks from now, we're having the, the bankruptcy episode. So a, was it
Chuck: Oh boy
Brian: Episode six, yeah. Bringing in the, the accounts and the, the trustees and the bankruptcy attorneys to talk about, what people need to be doing if that's, in your future and how to prepare yourself for that, it's gonna be the biggest doubter episode ever.
Chuck: One of the things we're working, we're working on by the way, which, which, which relates to that is, is we're we're in the middle of going for a grant to get some money, to build a program where a lot of these smaller companies that are now considering bankruptcy, if they all knew who each other was, and you could sort of band together, you know, I think there's an opportunity for that. Because you, a lot of companies who have maybe a channel break off of them, you know, a supply chain or a product customer. Well, maybe they have a peer in the same business who has something else break off. And you kind of, you know, if you could create sort of a matchmaking for these companies, you know, you know, a person who's got a company that goes bankrupt, that's the worst thing in the world for, you know, for these small businesses, that's the that's everything. And by the way, that means you just took away their retirement. There's no 401ks. Most of them have all their money in the business. So if you can get three of them to turn into one, I think that's the kind of thinking that, I know we're focused on is how do you make lemonade at a lemon basis?
Brian: Then as part of your world, 2.0 program, right?
Chuck: That’s it.
Brian: That's the thing. I see innovation. Just switch and move on. All right. Last question through here. number four, what, what's the future look like for your industry? Your company specifically get crystal ball. Kevin, what do you think.
Kevin: Well, it, you know, no crystal ball required. One of the really striking things about, this coronavirus strain and, and the, the spread of it is the disparate impact it's had on socioeconomic and, and certain races, versus others. we see, African Americans and Hispanics being impacted by this disproportionately versus other groups. You know, the, the big challenge that we have as an it community in healthcare is how can technology be applied to figure out why that is, and to help, you know, join at the table to figure out what we do about that. To prevent this from happening again. the numbers are, are absolutely staggering when you look at, at, you know, the higher percentages, not just of infections, but, but, fatalities associated with COVID-19. When you focus within socioeconomic groups and races, epidemiology I think is, has really stepped up and evolved very rapidly. During the course of this pandemic, but there are more questions than answers for you, when you start to unpack the data and look at it, and then, you know, drilling down into health care itself, revenue losses are, or what, you know, I see my peers talking about, the volumes have gone down. not just due to, you know, closure of outpatient practices and cancellation of electric procedures, but people being uncomfortable, if not outright afraid to seek medical care. So, you know what what's, what are the downstream collateral impacts to public health, as this continues and even after things opened back up again, how many people have delayed seeking care? For conditions that would otherwise be low impact or easily treatable, but now have exacerbated as, as they've been operating in a lockdown. you know, it's a, it's, it's a very large known unknown at this point. you know, that, that, you know, pushing people into a lockdown state, is going to potentially have larger impacts over time.
Brian: Yeah, couldn't agree with you more there. And one of the things you all did during this whole thing was you expanded and took over the Baltimore convention center, right? I mean, so I mean that, if that gives you any kind of, you know, idea of, of how, how, how large a community you were serving in the Baltimore and surrounding area and, and just what that took to, to do that. I mean, you know, conversion of what the convention center, as well as a hotel nearby, right?
Kevin: Yep. the, the hotel we ended up giving back, and, and thankfully, as the, as the curve actually appeared to a flattened out now, the convention center remains at full operational readiness. And as of last week had treated, I believe between 70 and 80 patients, all of whom were COVID-19 positive. Right. so it's, it's our surge facility and, and we've been making good use of it along with our partnership with Johns Hopkins. being able to balance and manage staffing. the partnership with, with the federal and state governments has been a huge help there. It was built out by people who do field, field, hospital, operations, and design for a living, it's modular. So it can, it can grow and shrink as needed to make optimal use of equipment staffing. It can hold over 200 patients, 250 plus per the original design. So, you know, it's there when it's needed and it's, it's not overly consuming resources when it's, when it's at a lower acuity than it was originally designed for. And we're hoping, you know, we're all watching for this, the second wave that may have right. And, and watching the data very closely so that, so that we're able to pivot on that. Should it happen?
Brian: Yeah, I've been very concerned after seeing the Delaware, Maryland, and some other state beach photos from Memorial day, weekend ago, thinking, Oh, are we just two weeks away from another great big spike because people just a little bit too close to each other without masks.
Chuck: The protests don't actually have six foot space either.
Brian: Yeah. Not a lot of spacing and some of that. and, and, and quite honestly, I'm pretty sure having sucked down a bit of it, myself that, tear gas doesn't make that any better for you.
Chuck: that's a story for another time. I'm sure.
Brian: Yeah. John. What about you? What's what's, what's the future for Marriott look like,
John: You know, for us in our industry, this economic impact, this, this impact our liquidity and our financials is, It's going to take time to recover it. And it's not going to be one year for us. It's a lodging industry. I mean, it's going to be a few years down the road to recover. And so a lot of, a lot of in the lodging industry, it's not so much people going on vacation. That's what we would call transient business. That piece will be the first to pick back up. we know we're seeing it in Florida, right East and some rates jump in, but. But the challenge with Austin, we're a lot lodging industries. A lot of the funding comes in is that business travel inventions or it's, where are our top 10 client customers, large organization, fortune 100 using us exclusively. When are they going to talk about, having conventions and return to business and, you know, they're, they're going to listen to what their employees or whatever one feels safe to do. So, and so this is going to go for a couple of years for us. And all the focus is on the next couple of years, but then I, I think even going beyond that, the lodging industry has just had this fun precedent in 12, 13 year run right now, with the great economy. Where, you know, it's at levels of profit, but it's never been ever, ever before being built up since Oh nine, but you know, positions at a high level and the industry has, has turned and people really haven't experienced, the other downturns, like in Oh nine. And so I think it's, it's a reminder to everyone in the industry that when the next event occurs, the next slight downturn, that we're an industry that gets hit really, really hard. And I think people are going to think twice about being in that industry, whether it's opening their own restaurant, whether it's getting that job at the front desk, whether it's open in their own, bed and breakfast, which has been their dream to do, you know, they're, they're worried that yeah, they may have the grade. Five or eight year run, but what's going to happen when this goes away. So I think it's going to shape the industry permanently, where it's going to land is, is, is hard to predict, but I think that we're going to need to figure out, the lodging industry. I mean, we'll need to figure out, how to brace for that, how to plan for that financially, how to minimize that and how to just always be cognizant, no matter how, great things start to go from here on out. As, as things pick up.
Brian: I would question related to that. So, yeah, I am that business traveler, right? I was in, Tokyo, Singapore and San Francisco, in the three weeks prior to, so the lockdown of, of all the flights and stuff like that. so, so I'm that guy, and, and I'm a, I'm a. Germaphobic sort of traveler. Anyway, I've been wearing a mask for a long time, especially in my travels back and forth to Asia. how's the industry going to deal with that, that concern, of, you know, sanitation and everything in, in, in hotel rooms and facilities. And these I get were, you know, everybody knows thousands, hundreds of thousands of people pass through on a regular basis.
John: Yeah, the question that's on everyone's mind. Absolutely. And so, our, our group over on my side, on the security side, we're, we're fighting these pop-up battles with, with the virus impacting. Maybe they are a particular business unit or hotel. the riots impacting us, but the entire rest of the organization and, and the other lodging industries, organizations focused on one thing. And that's sanitization of the guests rooms so things, as we knew it, in terms of housekeeping are going to be completely blown up. And what we're going to see are some more hospital grade type cleaning to take place. You know, you think of a hospital room and you've been on the carpet and you've been ill. They have a program where they go in and they're sterilizing every single bit of that room to make sure the next person coming in is not touching it. And so, A hotel is you're going to see me to that direction. I think things that are in the room that are hyped, hot are going to be rethought. and they can't be taken out, will be taken out. You'll see a change and bed covers bed sheets. And, and I know for us as an organization, we're going to be proceeding with electrostatic sprayers, with the chemistry that is effective. Hmm at eliminating, not only that virus, but a number of different viruses, but also being mindful that, others may not desire that. So you may have an option or if you have allergies and your big concerned about that, you may have some options in a room that does not have that. Or if you want to make sure that there's nothing less than there than we, we can give you a run, that thing and complete sterilized best of our ability.
Brian: Right. You UBC flooding and things like this.
John: That's yeah, that's the whole, the whole industry is focused on that and products and how to do it and what does it, and you know, what positions are needed to do it. And that's where it's going to go.
Brian: And you guys seen that a New York subway system was doing that. They'd prototype a few of the robots, you know, going up and down the cars of the UVC light, basically flood and flood the cars to make sure that anything was sitting on the surface. We're going to be dead. He was like that. Chuck, what about you? Apparently you've shifted pretty well. So things are still running,
Chuck: but maybe, maybe since that's the last question to sort of leave on a positive note, I'm actually optimistic that we may see a Renaissance sort of, of. Sort of innovation and sort of this pivoting thing here may create, you know, the opportunity for people to look at technology, or we'll just say innovation to solve some of these things, you know, and I think it's some of it's happening now, but, I'm sort of hopeful that sometimes when you get these. They are shaking events. You do get a lot of startups that come out of that because people have been displaced. You get a lot of, you've got a lot of workers who are displaced and they won't, they may do some unemployment or look around, but a lot of them end up may end up doing a startup, maybe banding together, starting up and creating new opportunities. So I'm, I'm looking forward to sort of, you know, watching that, helping that, where we can at least locally, you know, inset. you know, people and businesses to look at a different way to do things. And as I kind of said, at the beginning of the call, I do think it's a great opportunity to, you know, for every organization or business to look at themselves and say, you know, I, this is the opportunity to make a change. You know, you're always moving at 600 miles an hour and it's like these events that stop everything and that's the great time to relook it. You know how you're doing? I think a lot of companies are doing that. and it's a foreign thing to do because you don't want to. Yeah, you're, you're always moving too fast to do it. So I look at a potential opportunity here to. To really do some interesting things because we may have been asleep a little bit on the innovation side for awhile, finally, you know, I talked about that book by Matt Ridley called innovation, how innovation works and his theory is that we've just, we stopped really, you know, innovating and inventing things. Because every, you know, it's, it's. It's not happening. Like it used to, he blames regulation and some other things which he's right about with patents and stuff. I mean, in general, but you know, he suggests we free everything up. Everybody should run in, you know, an invention doesn't necessarily have to be a light bulb. Right. It can be something that was built off of something else. and so it's interesting, I think those kinds of things, maybe it'll get pushed more and maybe this next generation is interested in, you know, kind of putting their innovation hats on interest, trying to think there's some better ways to do things. Because this is a, I think we may look back and maybe that's one of the positive things that came out of this.
Brian: Could be things like higher education, I'm going to have to change a concert. Venues change. A lot of things have changed, which, which brings about my secret question. Number five for everybody
Chuck: I don't see it in the list
Brian: It's not on the list, is how long is it before you will, and to be in a room of 50 people again,
Kevin: Tomorrow, but with a, with a mask and good hand hygiene.
Brian: It's coming from the guys in the hospitals, he's already prepared
Chuck: Yeah, I know.
Brian: What about you John?
John: I'm going to go with 10 months,
Brian: 10 months. Okay.
Kevin: So John, would that be post vaccine or, for just the changing climate conditions?
John: I care more to it the change in climate conditions. But, you know, it's wishful thinking. It means a lot to me for it to happen again. So, I might be being a bit aggressive, but I'll go with 10 months.
Brian: What about you Chuck?
Chuck: I'm kinda maybe in between a little bit I'm I'm, you know, like everybody, this is, this is a little things where I have, my wife has elderly parents, you know, that we're trying to watch for, until I, I do think the vaccine is, this is somebody that magical moment, but the problem is, is that's nowhere near as, as I'm sure Kevin probably is more familiar. And then even if you're got it, how you're rolling that out. and then, Kevin alluded to it, this, resurgence in the fall. Is getting a little more traction. And then, and then, you know, I was talking to somebody at Maryland, the, emergency management and they said, well, now I want you to throw on flu season. And I wants to throw on a, what is predicted to be a very heavy hurricane season here coming up, you got all three of those and whatever we brace for before we probably ought to be in that mode for a while. So I, I would probably Brian, if it's, if it's, if it's a party you're holding and you have your cigars and bourbon, I'll come with 50 people there that I would, that I would commit to.
Kevin: There you go. That's an important point. I'd follow up on, I say tomorrow. knowing full well that, that I'm not in a high risk group. I have no medical conditions or comorbidities that would increase my risk. should I become infected of, of having a bad outcome or ending up in the ICU on it? I say that for my own condition here, I'm fully aware that there's a large segment of system that would incur much more risk than I would going into a room with 50 people, even with a consumer grade mask.
Chuck: And, yep. And that's my fear is I don't want to give it, you know, it's also, I guess what 25, 30% of us may have it. We don't show any symptoms, but we can spin it off to somebody else. That's also the that's what makes this such a tricky situation? It's not like somebody who walk around with a light bulb flashing on their head saying I got it. So everybody backs away.
Brian: Alrighty. Well, I thank you gentlemen, for being here with me. I really appreciate a lots of good conversation there. I'm sure folks will appreciate this next week when it comes out. we have a pretty good listener base and we're working on getting a bigger listener base to this. And I do get people emailing me questions. So I'll pass those along if they have, if they have stuff for you. And, next week we have the, special episodes, strange, strange thing came up this week. federal court, a federal magistrate, basically, put out a 14 page ruling talking to. The simple terms, he pulled privilege off a report that mandated, done mandated the big, big, giant, incident response company out there had done as part of the, ongoing, capital one, we, we call it litigation class action lawsuit. So he actually declared their report, not privileged and he gave reasons why. So we get some legal professionals and, and, and stuff on next week kind of breaking that down for us as to what it really means. It doesn't mean that you can't hire an IRR company anymore, but we'll be talking to a few folks about that. And thank you all very much, Ellen. Yeah.
Kevin Thank You Brian,
Chuck: Yup, John, Kevin. Nice meeting you, Kevin. Well, I'm thinking here.
John: Thank you guys.
Kevin: Thanks John. Have a great weekend folks.
John: Thanks, you guys too. Thank you.